Dr Naomi Murphy
Hi. Thanks for tuning in to Shockwave, a podcast exploring the impact of the release of the Epstein Files on the world and finding ways to understand and deal with the impact. I’m Dr. Naomi Murphy, a consultant clinical and forensic psychologist
Des McVey [00:01:11]:
And I’m Des McVey, a consultant nurse and psychotherapist. So what made you want to do this, Naomi?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:01:16]:
Seeing the impact of the Epstein Files, I wanted to help people make sense of their own reactions to the news and the world events. Also think to make sense of my own reaction to what was going on and response to the Epstein Files. I felt that we might be able to give people some ideas for how to cope with it and, uh, offer some hope that actually, even though the world feels quite dark right now, that maybe there’s a different way forward. I wondered what your motivation was for getting involved, Des?
Des McVey [00:01:46]:
It is like a COVID for psychological emotional contagion, and we’re all struggling with really toxic emotions like fear, shame, anger. What’s striking for me is the complete absence of leadership. As a tragedy, it’s like 9/11, the July King’s Cross bombings, Diana’s death. They were all national tragedies, and we had leaders who spoke up. They were strong, they were taking us forward. The Queen spoke out when Princess Di died. That’s absent now. We’ve basically got leaders running for cover.
Des McVey [00:02:23]:
And when you watch the MPs and journalists, you can— you just sense the shock— the fear, defensiveness, no strength at all. And they’re just all running for cover and no one’s looking after us. And that’s what worries me to think about what might be going on nationally.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:02:39]:
I think that’s such a good point. I remember watching, um, Prime Minister’s Questions, and some of the backbenchers were really giving Keir Starmer a hard time about why wasn’t he doing more to ensure accountability. And I was relieved to see the backbenchers stepping up and pushing those questions. It does make you think, you know, who is going to step into this vacuum? So I think it does need ordinary people to, to step up and play whatever part they can play in helping us steer ourselves through this crisis to some degree.
Des McVey [00:03:13]:
You’re absolutely right. You see Keir Starmer, he’s handshaking, his words are all mixed up, he’s not offering any leadership and society does try and negotiate circumstances with emotions. We need parental guidance, and it’s, it’s just not there. Well, I don’t think it’s there. I haven’t seen it.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:03:33]:
No, it just, it does seem very absent. But I suppose — just to put this in context, don’t you think the year is already looking quite surreal news-wise? You know, we’re only into week 2 of February.
Des McVey [00:03:43]:
I think it’s different because I think it involves elite social networks rather than in the past, there had been an external threat. There, there is an external threat we can put the responsibility on. It’s all sort of internal, and it’s corruption rather than attack. It’s unique for leaders to, to manage, and I don’t think there’s any single narrative. I think the narratives are, are dangerous. I think sometimes they’re antithetical to helping survivors. They’re confused. There’s no institution leadership, and they’re undercover.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:04:14]:
Yeah, I think just as you were talking, I was just thinking about the fact that 3 million files all dropped in one go. And we know that— well, they apparently— that’s, that’s half of the FBI’s when there might also be CIA files. But I think Channel 4 were talking this week about that it’s possibly only 2% of the files that are there. And you— it’s not surprising there’s a sense of overwhelm, but you also think “we need to keep our calm”, “we need to keep our head”. If everybody’s running for cover, if everybody’s feeling frightened and panic-struck, we are not going to think collectively about how how do we get ourselves out of this horrible mess that we’re in?
Des McVey [00:04:49]:
Absolutely. And you think, where’s the— that emotion, as you know, emotions are contagious, and people in all parts of the country will be having, experiencing emotions. They might be placing those emotions onto domestic conflict. I think, you know, listening to it in the car might increase road rage. I think a lot of people will be experiencing difficult emotions and be unable to locate them in a specific area. Does that make sense?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:05:17]:
Well, I wondered if you could just say a little bit more, explain perhaps a little bit more what you mean about more road rage or more domestic violence, because I think I kind of know what you’re getting at, but I do think that some people might struggle to understand that.
Des McVey [00:05:31]:
I think when you’ve got the television on and you’ve got all this— our leaders fighting one, one another, not to try and protect and look forward, but to try and defend themselves, and toxic communications, toxic emotions that have been expressed by the leaders, the shame, the anger, the rage, that kind of emotion is contagious, just like a virus, just like COVID, and, and it just seeps down and it will seep into the community. And I think people may feel unsettled and confused and emotionally fragile, and so things that maybe they usually handle, that they find they’re not being able to cope with and emotionally upset or angry or what— worse, violent. But I think it might be coming from the, the lack of containment. We’ve got no guidance at the moment.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:06:17]:
Yeah, such a good point. Yeah, such a good point.
Des McVey [00:06:20]:
How did you feel when the files were opened?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:06:22]:
To be honest, there was a part of me that felt a bit of, a bit of relief because I have kind of, as you have Des, in terms of working with people who sometimes have experienced sort of very extreme abuse in their histories, um, we’ve heard politicians alluded to at times, or prominent people, um, culturally. And so to me, there was a kind of relief that now we can talk about some of the things that you couldn’t have spoken about previously because you’d have just sounded like a ‘tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist’. So now I think we’re seeing that many conspiracy theories seem to have at least some basis in these files. You know, obviously there could be false allegations in those files, but I think the Epstein files is making it possible to talk about things. For instance, I know I know quite a few survivors of Satanic ritual abuse who haven’t really spoken about that publicly before because they’ve been worried that they will sound mad, that it will make their story seem un-credible, incredible, and actually now having the confidence to talk about their experiences in more— a more rounded way. Because actually, as all this flood of information is coming out, people are seeing that actually there’s an awful lot of people talking about, uh, Satanic ritual abuse. So there was some relief for me, but I do also see that there’s massive, you know, huge implications.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:07:48]:
I suppose what, what I was really struck by was seeing the impact on others. So people who I know who do watch some of these investigative journalists, some of these podcasters have been covering the Epstein files for a long— you know, serious journalists like Whitney Webb, for instance, who’s been covering financial corruption and the web of financial corruption at the top. I’m a bit reluctant to use the word elite actually, because I think it gives them some kind of status, as if they’re better than the ordinary person. So I don’t really want to use that word. But I think seeing people in my regular life who usually watch all these podcasts saying, “I feel really overwhelmed, it’s depressing, the shock of it all”, and I’m— “but like, you, you’ve already, you already listened to all these kind of stories. Why is it so overwhelming now?” And then also, I was really taken aback by seeing some of the podcasts who’ve covered these stories themselves looking visibly distressed. Yeah, talking about feeling betrayed, um, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene, um, a senator talking about feeling betrayed. Kim Iverson and Ian Carroll looking like they were close to tears in, in their podcasts.
Des McVey [00:08:56]:
Yeah, for me, I think it’s like they’ve caught COVID, and you know, those reactions are the same as coughing and sputtering and having a temperature. I kind of look at them as well and think, “God, you’ve got this really toxic emotional contagion. And you’re not managing it”. So I totally agree with you.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:09:14]:
I think that COVID is such a good metaphor actually that you’re using in terms of the impact. It is a, you know, it’s exactly like that in terms of the contagion. And if, if you think about COVID and the fact we were shown all those images of people dropping dead in China on the streets, I think— yeah, and I think you’re right.
Des McVey [00:09:34]:
We had, we had the 5 o’clock discussion, even if they were right or wrong, we had some sort of leadership recognizing what might be on and trying to protect us, and, and that’s absent now. And, you know, this does go to the Royal Family, and I think it’s incumbent on the king to, to make a public announcement about what level of fear has happened, because these institutions that we are supposed to invest in and feel safe in are actually threatening us. And I think a lot of the narrative is antithetical to, you know, survivors growing, developing the assumption if you’re a victim, you’ll never recover.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:10:13]:
A bit like the pandemic did, it separated us all, you know, we were all hiding in our houses. And I think the impact of this news being dropped is it, you know, it does risk us all sort of pushing us all further apart, retreating into the safety of isolation, switching off. And I think really, you know, we need to come back together as society and otherwise I think we’ll be quite damaged and harmed with the consequences of all of this.
Des McVey [00:10:38]:
Yes, there’ll be a lot of people experiencing re-traumatization, uh, without the help, the support. There’ll be lots of people experience vicarious trauma because of what’s, what’s been told and what’s been said. It’s, it’s very unsafe for them.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:10:54]:
I feel a sense of responsibility to society to try and pitch in and help, don’t you?
Des McVey [00:10:58]:
Absolutely. How would you say we could help?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:11:01]:
Well, we’ve got background in working with the kind of people who do these kind of things, so we do understand the impact on society when people behave in ways which are harmful to society. But I I think, you know, in terms of Joe Public, we’ve got a background in supporting people to cope with trauma and overcome that.
Des McVey [00:11:21]:
Yeah, you’re right. We’ve worked with survivors who have recovered. I think it’s for understanding and hope, but there’s real absence of that just now.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:11:28]:
And you’ve been working with, you know, survivors for, what, 40 years? Yeah. So that’s a lot of experience, I think, to be able to contribute something, I think, to try and help people find ways to— I mean, I really like the emphasis on post-traumatic growth, and I know that doesn’t always happen, but actually, I think from the work that we’ve done with people who have had a lot of trauma, that we are able to identify ways that people can recover from trauma. And I think there is a risk of people being traumatized right now in terms of the things that they’re seeing, the betrayal that people perhaps experience. But I think we have got experience in being able to help people recover. And move on.
Des McVey [00:12:13]:
One of the important things for survivors is validation and authentication, and as you know and I know, a lot of them, they want someone to say, “I’m sorry, I got it wrong.” I think what’s going on just now is, is completely antithetical to that. No one is taking responsibility, no one’s saying that they’re sorry. And I just know this term, “we have to think about the survivors”, I think it’s very much like a buzzword, and I don’t think there’s real— any substance behind it.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:12:43]:
Yeah, it feels quite performative, doesn’t it, to make those kind of statements? I mean, absolutely, we do need to be thinking about them, but I think it’s, it’s wheeled out by people when they’re trying to hide and squirm away from their own sense of responsibility.
Des McVey [00:12:55]:
I find it sad for survivors when I hear them. I really do, because I haven’t worked with so many. I know how they’ll interpret the term. You need to think about the survivors or thoughts of the survivors. It’s actually quite damaging to them. It doesn’t help. Because it’s a meaningless word to, as you say, to try and defend against possibly taking responsibility.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:13:16]:
I think it’s just been used to exploit them.
Des McVey [00:13:18]:
There’s something about us being able to offer hope, you know. So what do you think might be helpful then, moving forward?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:13:23]:
Well, I suppose for this podcast, I don’t think we’re going to offer an analysis of the salacious details. I think there’s plenty of other people offering that up, don’t you?
Des McVey [00:13:33]:
Yeah, yeah. Become immune to the, the salacious presentation. And, and again, you feel this isn’t helping, this isn’t helping survivors. This is, this is not helping survivors.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:13:45]:
Yeah, that’s the danger is that people do. But I think one of the things that I think could be potentially useful for people is to acknowledge the impact this event is having on society, what, what impact it’s having on us at an individual level, the impact that it’s having on society. And I guess to then offer a, uh, an understanding from a psychological perspective about what’s happening to us with the impact of this news.
Des McVey [00:14:09]:
Yeah, you know, is there an increase in violence? Is there an increase in road rage? Is there an increase in people acting out their emotions, violent people squabbling more? That— there’s all these issues that need to be explored and understood. We haven’t got parents looking after us. No one’s protecting us. And no one to stand up and say, “we’ll get through this, we’ll get through this as a nation”. It’s really incredibly sad. I just think hope’s so important. Well, I think it’s about assessing the narrative of what are these people saying, and what does it really mean, and how does it help to ignore? Because people need a lot of support.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:14:45]:
Yeah, I was just thinking, uh, back to your metaphor of COVID actually, that one of the things that happened in COVID is that people ended up eating a lot. So we got fatter as a nation, and people were also drinking more. And of course, it might be that people aren’t going out getting angry in their cars, but it might be that they’re retreating and feeling a bit hopeless and negative in their homes. That’s the kind of thing that happens gradually. You know, people aren’t really aware that they’re having a glass of wine every night. And hopefully, if we sort of start encouraging people to think about what impact this event is having on them, that will help people stay a bit more informed whilst also protecting their own emotions. And, you know, a lot of this stuff that we’re hearing about from the Epstein files, it’s actually really dark material. And, you know, as you said, one of the possibilities there is that we switch off to it and we become a bit numb and a bit desensitised, which is a symptom of, of trauma, as you know.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:15:42]:
When we were working in the prison, one of the things that you can have a sense of is that people feeling quite contaminated by dark stuff, you know, when you’re hearing really dark stories, really dark information. I always felt when I was working in a prison, that I had to work hard to protect my own sense of wholesomeness, you know, so I didn’t end up cynical or negative, that I was able to protect my own, I guess, sense of humanity. And hopefully with this podcast, we can help people be informed but find ways to protect their emotional and, dare I say it, spiritual health, um, that sense of wholesomeness.
Des McVey [00:16:16]:
That’s really true. We did work with some prisoners who were survivors of ritual sex abuse, you know, tried to help them get through that trauma obviously address their offending behaviour, but working through the trauma. You, you did leave the room. Sometimes the urge was to have a shower or to wash, to escape, just because of the, the content of it. And it’s— that’s contagion.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:16:37]:
I mean, I always wash my hands after a session anyway. It feels like you’re washing something of what’s been heavy or painful that you’re carrying, that you can help wash that away. But, you know, so for today, Des, for this, this first episode, okay, do you have any advice to offer people where they can stay informed but restrict the impact? Because we don’t really want people to totally switch off, because in some ways I think that’s why we’re in this position, because we haven’t been aware of what’s been going on. We have had the wool pulled over our eyes, so we don’t want people to switch off altogether. But do you have any advice for how to minimise the risk just for today?
Des McVey [00:17:14]:
I think it’s about understanding how— for people who have been victims, to, to try and understand, is it impacting them in a way that’s re-traumatising? And I think sometimes watching The, the visual impact of some of the things is, is much more powerful than maybe just retreating and reading and finding a useful— yeah, outlet that you can just read the content and try and escape from what’s going on in television, try and escape from the media that are using it in a salacious way and a way that, that isn’t protective, in a way that just wants to push shame. I think at the moment it’s avoiding that, and I find myself avoiding and those sort of shows where it’s, it’s just parents arguing and fighting amongst one another while the children just left to try and fumble along. What thoughts do you have about it?
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:18:05]:
I think you’re right about that, you know, the— I mean, the science on visual images is, are that they are much more powerful in terms of triggering the brain region responsible for emotional processing. So they activate our amygdala and trigger fear, anxiety, and, and potentially collapse, I guess. Uh, we seem to have a much stronger reaction to visual material. The science tells us that. And then also, I think, because what, what we call the picture superiority effect— pictures are more distinctive, aren’t they? And so they’re more distinctive than text. And so visual information is encoded using both verbal and visual channels of encoding, which means that they’re a lot easier to recall, they’re a lot harder to forget and put to one side. Um, so I, I would concur with you on that.
Des McVey [00:18:50]:
I think some of the— I mean, if If you think about Hollywood and the movies, a lot of the, the times you’re in a movie theater and you end up crying because of what you’re seeing and the way it’s been communicated. And so it is very powerful at eliciting emotions. And for me, Schindler’s List was the most powerful one. It was heartbreaking. You could see the whole, the whole theater were coming together with pain and suffering. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of these battles that you’re seeing with different people with different political ideologies trying to score points, it can, it can lead to being very, very painful and hurtful. I remember one movie, I mean, it was called— Jodie Foster was in it, I think it was called The Accused or something like that, but I had to walk out just because of the power of the images. And it wasn’t— but the images, it was the power behind it, and it’s so frightening.
Des McVey [00:19:44]:
And I think for a lot of people just listening to this toxic narrative will cause a lot of pain for them and suffering, and they might not be able to connect both things together, if that makes sense.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:19:55]:
I guess from that, what we’re saying is you’re better off reading a bit of the news rather than immersing yourself in very visual-heavy things. I really like Substack, actually, because I think you get some really good investigative journalists really going deep into some of these stories, but in a way where you’re not being so heavily confronted by visual images, but you’re having more of an— more of a sense of more of an understanding of how everything weaves together. I suppose the, the other thing that I would be really encouraging people to do, bearing in mind we have a bias towards negative information, I think it’s worth working extra hard to try and get some of that positive information in. You know, all those people posting cat and dog memes on X and on Instagram, I think they’re actually doing us all a massive favor to feed us something positive. I don’t know if you’ve seen The Official Dog Pack, where it’s two dogs hosting a podcast, but they’re making really insights about humans. And I think there’s something about those lighter moments that we really need. Mm-hmm. And naturally we’re— we gravitate towards the negative in order to prepare ourselves, to protect ourselves.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:21:02]:
But actually I think we really need to make an effort to seek out some of the lighter moments.
Des McVey [00:21:07]:
Yeah. We’re designed to go and find the threat. And I think talking about the reptile brain, is that more active than it should be? And be thinking about some simple relaxation techniques like, you know, deep breathing, focusing on being in the present Identifying what’s urgent in the moment are all useful.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:21:26]:
I think it’d be really good if each episode, if we do kind of like focus on some of those things a little bit more. And I would really encourage you, you know, on our Substack, which it’s Octopus Psychology, we’ll share a link in the, the notes to the podcast, but we have a section on the Octopus Psychology Substack called Help to Heal, where we’ve curated free resources where people can engage in things like um, breathing exercises. So people can find those resources there, but I think it would be good if each episode of this podcast we’re kind of like giving people some useful advice that they can use to protect their emotional well-being as we go through the next few months.
Des McVey [00:22:08]:
Break it down into like trauma, the ontological shock, helping survivors, understanding yourself.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:22:15]:
Yeah, I’d really like to see us do that. I’d like us to kind of go at a pace that is helpful for people, because I think what’s happening at the moment people really are getting flooded with a lot of information, aren’t they? And I think if we can help people take a bit of a pause and just notice what’s going on and find ways to, to deal with that, that, you know, I’d feel like I’d offered something useful.
Des McVey [00:22:35]:
There is absolutely nothing coming from our leaders at the moment. There, there’s nothing helpful. It’s actually very frightening, the lack of leadership at a time when people are really struggling.
Dr. Naomi Murphy [00:22:45]:
If there’s anything that you’re struggling with in relation to the, the news of the Epstein files at the moment, do drop us a, a comment and we’ll try and respond to those feedback. We’ll try and tailor the podcast so that it is useful for you. We don’t know how this is gonna pan out right now, but we would like to make it something that, that is a useful resource to you going forward. If you enjoyed listening to today’s episode, please like the episode, follow us, and subscribe. Join us for another episode of Shockwave: Coping with the Epstein Emails wherever you get your podcasts.
